I wanted to weight in on this topic as I think many people are wrongfully protesting this project.
"You cannot do that. That is social suicide.*Damn*! You are so lucky you have me to guide you."
I know this post might bring in a lot of designers to voice their opinions on doing spec work. But I think they are missing the point that SOME SPEC WORK IS OK when there are other benefits associated with it besides having a good portfolio piece.
Personally as a freelance designer, I think it would be foolish (and that’s the nice version of the word I meant to write in here) to not take part in this project. I don’t understand why more people aren't seeing the incredible opportunity that the Guy Kawasaki contest is. The unseen benefit highly outweighs the temporary monetary reward.
First let me tell you a little about myself to help you understand the position I’ve taken with this topic as some people who read it might not know who I am.
I’m an information designer who works in litigation presentations. I help lawyers translate their evidence and words into meaningful visuals so that the jury can make a good decision on a verdict. The pay is good in this industry. I don’t know many designers that charge an hour nearly close to what I do. There are times when work is bountiful and after a gig is up I can take a month, or three off and still be well off financially. But there are also those times when a string of cases settle and I’m not working when I need to be making money. I know how a freelance hustle works. I understand the need to make money. I have been at both ends of the freelance spectrum. When work is slow or I can't get paid work... I still work. Yes I much rather sit on my behind all day and feel sorry for myself but I try to keep busy, to keep polishing my skills. Most importantly I understand which free opportunities get me exposure for getting more paid work.
Maybe when you’re a designer who is making thousands of dollars a week it’s hard to see why doing free work could benefit you. (But trust me when I tell you there are not MANY designers making thousands of dollars a week.)
I can’t even comprehend why an up and comer, a student, or someone who is presently unemployed would be protesting this kind of free publicity. (I'd love to hear from YOU the most)
From the backlash I have seen so far on twitter, many designers with underdeveloped (and I’m being really kind here) portfolios are protesting this contest. Just look up @guykawasaki, he’s been defending his project for hours as a horde of artists are publicly crucifying him. I wonder how many are famous or wealthy.
My question to you is… WHY? What do you have to lose? Since you have so much to gain here.
Right now you only see…. well… “THE NOW”. You only see your current situation, of how you need to work on something that pays, or maybe you won’t be able to pay the bills. But there is a reason you are NOT getting hired.
I think one critical piece of information many people who are protesting this contest are missing is that Guy Kawasaki is NOT some Joe Blow trying to get FREE work. He is an already established name in the social media world. Anyone even remotely interested in this topic, or presentations or business should have at least heard his name before. People in the industry revere him. This book is guaranteed to have a presence one-way or another with many different demographics.
This is NOT an ad from an up and coming garage band looking for a free cover for their first CD, promising you, you will get your props when and IF they get famous.
This is NOT the kind of spec work that has zero potential of being more than just a portfolio piece. It's not even in the same league.
If you win the contest you will get paid $1000, and on top of that YOUR work, YOUR design will be seen on shelves in book stores all over the world. Not to mention the shelves of the people who purchase the book. Let's not forget the multiple venues of publicity the publisher will dish out for.
I also have it on good authority that the best entries will be displayed as a collage on the back cover. Even if you don't win, and don't get $1000 your work still has potential to be seen by millions. Ok maybe 1 million. Even if it was just 100,000... or 10,000
I honestly doubt you will EVER going to be able to afford FREE marketing and publicity with such a large audience, unless maybe you're Oprah.
How many of those saying NO, are presently making $1000 per project?
How many saying NO, have no work at all?
How many of those who are saying NO and don't have gainful employment think their time is too precious to work on a project that can help them get work?
Do you know what kind of people will take part in this contest?
Remember Tyler Travitz, the interactive designer who I follow on twitter because he always has good information on design. The one who by the way already HAS a job… with GolinHarris, and already HAS an incredible portfolio. Yes he has already submitted his entry for the contest.
But you know what, it’s OKAY. You can go back to sitting on your sofa and waiting for someone to GIVE you a job while other people make the money. But please stop bitching about how you're poor and can't get any work.
I'm not a designer, but I understand the general AIGA guidelines against doing spec work. Your argument sounds like a good reason to strategically consider the occasional spec project when there are other benefits. It's not one-size-fits-all.
ReplyDeleteMainly the principle, I think. Many of the cultures on the internet are finding out that free content is just that: free. There used to be a feeling that "oh boy, if I put my stuff online and enter contests, I'll get hired and people will appreciate me!". I think that we're finding out that sentiment is not really valid.
ReplyDeleteI'm calling bullshit on your post here. There's no way that given away your talent will open up the floodgates to future riches. I'm a successful designer who has worked on many high profile projects and I've never had the misfortune of giving away my talent.
ReplyDeleteHow many of the lawyers that you work for would do their job for free? And I'm not talking about contingency or pro bono. How many would put in a full day's work auditioning for a client without a guarantee of payment?
Spec work is a losing gamble. My talent is too precious to be free. I'd like to see Guy Kawasaki work for nothing on his next project.
God!! You've just got me reminded about the permission marketer and how he should be looking for a job: you must give give give.
ReplyDeleteDon't keep it to yourself.
Just give.
Thanks.
Well @RBeezy, you can see some of Guy's projects for free here: http://www.guykawasaki.com/downloads/index.shtml
ReplyDeleteThe fact that he's famous makes the spec work even more egregious.
ReplyDeleteIt gives a bad reference point for nobodies to emulate spec based contests as an ethical norm.
Ethics comes from the top. This makes Guy's media stunt very disappointing. Guy is not the exception to the rule. He makes the evil practice of spec an encouraged practice.
Shame on him.
@Rbeezy
ReplyDeleteI'm happy to hear you are gainfully employed in the current economy.
However, many designers are struggling to keep steady employment.
If you already work for a big firm (law firm or design firm) or have a lot of experience and steady clients that bring in work you might not see the benefit of taking a low paying or free high profile project.
But what about those still trying to establish their names? A huge corporation would rarely put their fate in the hands of a unknown law firm just to give them a chance. But Guy sees a mutual benefit in the contest and hopes that there are designers that will do that as well.
I never said give out free work. But people have to understand that not all spec work is bad especially when it has potential to bring you some publicity.
Here's a test of the theory.
ReplyDeleteLook at Guy's link here http://dl.dropbox.com/u/102435/Back.pdf and tell me 1. Who is and how "famous" is the designer 2. How are the rest of the batch doing?
Oh. And I'm going to steal Guy's book...I'll pay for it if I like it. :)
I agree with RBeezy.
ReplyDeleteThose are red flags. I've heard countless potential client say that to me, you'll get free PR, more work, etc. Sure, it's Guy Kawasaki. You might have great benefits if you win. What are the chances of that?
I've done design work for Guy Kawasaki before. He's a cool guy and easy to work with. I rather see him hire a real designer, than this contest of wannabe designers. Just because they have a copy of photoshop, think they are designers.
- Cal
Is it okay if we scan his book and offer the whole thing as a free download on my website?
ReplyDeleteI think he would appreciate the TONS of free publicity and recognition for publishing his work as spec in the public domain.(*SARCASM*)
If the book is worthy enough *MAYBE* we give him a couple of bucks.
@cal
ReplyDeleteyes MANY people who have photoshop think they are designers, but who says ONLY wannabe designers are going to participate in the contest? There are MANY real designers who are unemployed and this could be a great opportunity for them to get some exposure.
@anonymousNobody How does giving out his book for free on your website compare to the contest? The winner will get paid. You're comparing apples and oranges here.
Those who think "what are the chances of winning". What a defeatist attitude. You are afraid of failure so you won't even try?
I knew that my stance would piss off those designers who already get paid for their work. But I have friends who can't get jobs... who are great designers. This is a very unique project and I don't think it's fair to compare it to EVERYTHING.
1. $1000 is $1000. How much do you believe your work is worth? If you were unemployed, would you take an intern designer job for $20 an hour? (I'm being generous here.) I bet you would. At that rate, he's giving you 50 hours of work... Is it going to take you 50 hours? Sure there's no guarantee you're going to get paid, but when was the last time you didn't have to earn your keep?
ReplyDelete2. Attitude is Everything.
3. How much would it be worth to you to be positively promoted to 258,204+ people? How many hours of work would you need to do to reach them?
Would likely be more than that actually, but that's how many followers Guy has right now on Twitter.
Thank Fabgeekling, cause she didn't receive any payment from any of you for making this post. Consider it free advice.
The IOC barely gets away with this sort of crowd sourcing of design. Guy is not the IOC. The exposure is fleeting.
ReplyDeleteIn most cases I think this type of activity is pure laziness as well as getting more bang for the buck. The arguments like "giving the little guy a chance" and "you can get exposure" are really a smoke screen to counter accusations like "you are getting a lot of work for free on the backs of the little guy".
I think in Guy's case is seems more of an experiment. And he's probably loving all the talk. He is certainly getting a bit of marketing out of this.
If I was publishing a book, I would want an AMAZING cover design. Creating amazing design takes a lot of hard work based on a lot of experience, talent and insight. Do you really think you can crowd source that? The author needs to meet the designer face to face so there is a melding of minds. And here's the thing: if the designer does his/her job the is NO DECISION on the author's part ... there is just an AMAZING design.
If I was hired by Guy to design this book cover, all these comps would be really useful in the process. Sure he has committed $1000. But has he committed to actually using one as his cover? What if none of them are good enough?
Every time I set out to design something, I want it change the world. I want it to change lives. Competitions like these don't deserve this sort of effort. Unless it's the IOC. -1 Guy.
Magda mentioned me in this post, and so I just want to provide my perspective.
ReplyDeleteAs a designer, do I think spec work is egregious, yes! People have felt just as entitled to my work for free as as the next guy, and it is appalling for someone to think that I should work for them for nothing. But after some consideration, I decided to participate in Guy's contest for a couple of reasons:
1. Participation does not mean wasted time. Guy isn't the only one benefiting from the contest. As a gainfully employed designer for a huge company, I do work for Fortune 500 companies every day. Most of the time it is really exciting and rewarding. But, it can't be 100% of the time. From time to time you need to do work outside of your "9-5" to:
- keep your skills sharp,
- stay inspired; or
- simply for personal enjoyment.
For me, this project falls into that 3rd category. I saw a friend post his designs for the contest, I couldn't help but start thinking about the project and doodling. It was fun, and now we have a small competition. I don't even care whether or not I win. I did it because it was fun and, at the very least, I'm working on improving my own skills and I get a portfolio piece out of it. At the very best, I made $1000 for 2 hours of work and get a lot of exposure.
2. Smart business people recognize a good investment and INVEST IN THEIR OWN BUSINESSES.
Investment is a necessary part of all businesses, big and small. Would I do this for every Joe Blow who comes along? No. Would I spend 50 hours on it? No. But, it's easy to recognize this as a good investment. It's about cost/benefit folks, and I believe in this particular case, the benefits greatly outweigh the costs. Again: 2 hours might pay $1000 or $500 per hour. Even in my 9-5, I make only a fraction of that hourly rate. In addition, Guy provides the potential for incredible exposure. That's a pretty outstanding ROI, and if you can't see that, you probably shouldn't be in business.
I understand both sides of the argument. I can appreciate the perspective that Guy, or rather Guy's publisher, can afford a designer and certainly pay them more than $1000. I understand that someone as prolific as Guy promoting a contest like this legitimizes spec work to some degree. That said, I really think it's about frame of reference. My frame being, a fun project for someone who's work I appreciate. In addition, I have the potential to be recognized and get paid. If not, it was still a valuable exercise (see #1 above).
Insightful post Magda. Thanks for sharing.
I'm glad Tyler weighted in on this as he is not the core audience who I intended this post for. He is already gainfully employed and still gave really good points on why he felt compelled to submit work for the contest.
ReplyDeleteAlso I am ASTONISHED how many designers are thinking about this project with a mindset that it's FREE and their time will be wasted BECAUSE they will not win. Geezes, do you always start out projects with such a defeatist attitude? How about, I'm going to do this contest because I'm going to win $1000? Have some faith in your own work.
if you really need to boost your portfolio why not find charity organizations that need posters/flyers/t-shirts... this is standard practice in advertising or even law, why not design?
ReplyDeleteHonestly if you do want to do work for a high profile client why not just ask for work? or if youve got free time ask for a internship? or if you cant find paid work why not try barter your skills? etc
i thing these "competition" spec jobs are just a little stupid. If you need more work then use your free time to get more paid work NOT working for free!!
I find that if you agree to do something for free, it gives you absolutely no leverage for future projects with that client. Essentially, you're backing yourself into a corner, from which you can only lose. Sometimes clients are even a little shocked and offended that you may actually need to invoice them this time, even though you did the first job gratis. And if they do agree to be invoiced, they'll expect you to be dirt cheap. In the vast majority of cases, I've found that if you ask nothing of your client, deep down, they'll think nothing of you.
ReplyDeleteThe reasons of you will get recognition, etc etc. I've heard so many times before, which never comes. This debate has been going for years now.
ReplyDeleteBravo! Bravo Magda! I'm really content that there's still a voice of reason within designers to weigh in on this matter.
ReplyDeleteYou don't how fast I came to the computer when I read the tweet on this subject, I have been trying to state the same or very similar point of view for years now within the community, and all it has brought me is the rejection and the "gangloathing" of most of my colleagues.
I'm a graphic designer for several years now, have studied and been employed in different countries (USA & Venezuela) and have been employed by clients of very different backgrounds, budgets and ideas. Through my employers, I have handled high-profile clients in sports teams and events, as well as city and county events projects. I consider myself a pretty successful designer, I feel that if I needed to get employment in the industry I could get it again in 2 seconds but right now I have chosen to occasionally freelance (some clients that know me and still want work from me) because of my family situation.
Being this my case, I find that the occasional high-profile "contest project" or even crowdsourcing are great ways to keep sharpening my skills, in software and concept, and even it gives me the opportunity to show my work, my critical thinking, my perspective. I have found that some of them where projects that I didn't even know how I would have approach a company to work on that (screenprinting, for example) until I did it when a request from crowdsourcing came up.
Having said that, I find very frustrating that in an industry that is supposed to hold the most open-minded and creative working people, at the same time is the community that is most judgmental and critical of what is considered by them as a waste of time and talent. Several times I have answered to that argument that, like @rbeezy said "giving away your talent", if you give away your whole talent with just 1 project that you create in a contest, then you had very little talent to give...
I considered that talent is neverending, is my renewable natural resource, so I can never be so selfish to not share my talent if I consider it has a good purpose or idea behind it.
Naysayers like @cal (who I have encountered before, and I know he comes from following "a group of elitist" that has "made it" and now think "their work don't stink") @rbeezy @anonymous, etc. just reinforce the idea that the ones that are more concerned on how spec work, contests and crowdsourcing affects them are people with little or no talent that have invested in their "design careers" and now they pretend to be paid $1000 an hour because "Design is an art" that only the talented understand.
Bravo! Bravo Magda! I'm really content that there's still a voice of reason within designers to weigh in on this matter.
ReplyDeleteYou don't how fast I came to the computer when I read the tweet on this subject, I have been trying to state the same or very similar point of view for years now within the community, and all it has brought me is the rejection and the "gangloathing" of most of my colleagues.
I'm a graphic designer for several years now, have studied in different countries (USA & Venezuela) and have been employed by clients of very different backgrounds, budgets and ideas. Through my employers, I have handled high-profile clients in sports teams and events, as well as city and county events projects. I consider myself a pretty successful designer, I feel that if I needed to get employment in the industry I could get it again in 2 seconds but right now I have chosen to occasionally freelance (some clients that know me and still want work from me) because of my family situation.
Being this my case, I find that the occasional high-profile "contest project" or even crowdsourcing are great ways to keep sharpening my skills, in software and concept, and even it gives me the opportunity show my work, my critical thinking, my perspective. I have found that some of them where projects that I didn't even know how I would have approach a company to work on that (screenprinting, for example) until I did it with a request from crowdsourcing came up.
Having said that, I find very frustrating that in an industry that is supposed to hold the most open-minded and creative working people, at the same time is the community that is most judgmental and critical of what is considered by them as a waste of time and talent. Several times I have answered to that argument that, like @rbeezy said "giving away your talent", if you give away your whole talent with just 1 project that you create in a contest, then you had very little talent to give...
I considered that talent is neverending, is my renewable natural resource, so I can never be so selfish to not share my talent if I consider it has a good purpose or idea behind it.
Naysayers like @cal (who I have encountered before, and I know he comes from following "a group of elitist" that has "made it" and now think "their work don't stink") @rbeezy @anonymous, etc. just reinforce the idea that the ones that are more concerned on how spec work, contests and crowdsourcing affects them are people with little or no talent that have invested in their "design careers" and now they pretend to be paid $1000 an hour because "Design is an art" that only the talented understand.
Another 10 min briefing...an insult to design profession and 'summertime' brain lapsus by Guy, who normally raises the level of mediocrity. "Imagine standing in Borders and seeing a sea of books, this one has to stand out." It's not a surprise people are rightfully protesting, it's not about the money - it's about the challenge, there is none. Another design job about an anodyne project with no rationale for objectives, let alone for sound criteria of selection. What is he going to do? - line up all the designs, take a picture of them and then blindly choose which has more impact, for a book he would not personally buy. I respect very much Guy, it must be his inner-ear affliction.
ReplyDeleteThe small 4 person consulting company that I work for did something similar when hiring our last full time employee - they were asked to spend half a day working on a client project of ours. There were those that thought their shit don't stink and refused to do the project. That made the hiring process very easy, as we don't want anybody at our company that has that attitude. We're very pleased with the guy we did hire - he's a great employee an friend now.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious - what do all of you think about Logo Tournament? Ha
@Stuart
ReplyDelete3. How much would it be worth to you to be positively promoted to 258,204+ people? How many hours of work would you need to do to reach them?
Mhh, this would be worthwhile if those 258,204+ people were potential commissioners of design work. Which they're not.
$1000 ---
ReplyDeletethat's less than you would be paid if you were commissioned directly to do the cover. And then you would have the guarantee that you get paid.
$1000 is LOW, and especially ridiculous for a contest.
Like my parents says "Instead of complaining, work." Show me you are better or just keep watching somebody picking 1000bucks... I work for a company that we develop free projects in marketing solutions. If you liked you pay, if not, ok. And it works pretty well.
ReplyDeleteI just remembered something that Guy said in his speech."It's my money in his pocket, how do i get my money in his pocket."
If you don't wanna play that game. Get off!
Because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the term “design contest” is really an oxymoron. The winner will not be the one with the best skills or the most talent. They'll be the one who, most likely by chance, came up with the design that Guy likes the best. He is leveraging his popularity to get looks at as many different designs as he can for little cost in order to better find the one that thrills him. Personally, I can't say that that is a bad thing. Participation is totally voluntary and I would probably do the same thing if I had the means. Designers just need to understand that this is little more than a lottery. You might win your five minutes of fame, but the chances are slim.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I'm not saying don't do spec work. I do it, but I do it when I know I'm going to win a 500K project. $1K is a pathetic payday. It's a better idea to spend the time working for free for a charity or just making art for yourself and posting it online to a forum.
ReplyDeleteYou get jobs by being social and making connections. This contest is completely impersonal.
When was the last time you looked at a book that was not illustrated and wondered "who did this design work?"
If you actually have ever done that, as I have sometimes with movie posters, it's because I AM A DESIGNER. I care about that kind of thing. I look at restaurant menus and name all the fonts.
What audience do you think you are really exposing yourself to here? What publicity? It's what? A BS social media book right? If you're even thinking about reading his books, you're already doing life wrong, and I doubt you're going to be looking at that jacket sleeve for the winner's name.
You have more luck at gaining publicity by creating a pop culture meme on the internet and no doubt you will have much more fun doing that than designing this guy's book cover.
If you're an artist and you're thinking about entering this contest, how about instead you go online and look for design communities that are a good fit for you. Those are the places where you will be able to hone your craft (get critiques & feedback) and meet people who can actually find you a job if you need one.
When those artists are slammed with work at their agencies, and their HR asks if they know anyone who can come in and help, you want your name to be the first thing they think of.
Designers should make a cover... the "crowd source" the book inside. (Watches as writers heads explode...) :D
ReplyDeleteI'm trying my best to respond to everyone. Sorry my comments are not threaded.
ReplyDelete@jumpy1 - RE just as for high profile work.
Is this argument even a serious attempt to counter what I have said? Gee I'd love to work on some Microsoft patent litigation. Hear that Bill Gates, I want to work for you.
Don't you think people already try this method and don't get hired? What if there are no positions available for the type of work you want?
@anonymous at 2:57am 8-2-10 RE giving free work gives you no leverage in the future.
Giving away free stuff has worked in marketing for many many years. If your free work/product is good, people will be willing to pay for it in the future.
@patrickdh RE contest fuels mediocrity.
Do you really believe that? I think it's on the contrary. You are being pitted against other professionals in the field. If anything this should bring out more creativity. The submissions are even available on the site for everyone to see.
@anonymous at 8:10am 8-2-10
Even if only 10 out of the 200K of Guy's followers are potential to commission new work, wouldn't that be worth to people that can't get ANY work?
@anonymous at 8:12am and 9:23am RE $1000 is too cheap
I honestly don't believe you make $500K on spec design projects.
For those people who don't have any work at all, I'm sure $1000 would mean a lot.
@eemitch RE Winning will be by chance.
It's not like Guy will close his eyes and say I choose you Pikachu and point to a random design.
ALL clients choose you on some criteria they want. They review your portfolio to see if you do the type of work they are interested in.
Yes the creative brief... is well, VERY brief in this case. But it provides enough information to really get some creative juices flowing.
I think that's a lousy excuse for not submitting work because you're afraid you will fail.
@stuart
ReplyDelete$1000 dollars isn't $1000 dollars when you aren't guaranteed payment. You have to win. If you don't win, that's wasted time.
Really good post!
ReplyDeleteI'm always amazed at what apple fan-boys & girls will tell themselves to quiet the cognitive dissonance. As others have already eloquently explained, for the individual designer, the risks of crowd-sourcing far outweigh the benefits, period. Promises of future work based on free or undervalued work, rarely if ever materialize. It's an unsustainable business model. Best of luck to those who decide to engage in this type of work, you will need it.
ReplyDeleteTo begin with, this is a good post with some valid points (not that I agree with all of them).
ReplyDeleteHonestly, designers are tarnishing their image by behaving like spoiled children as a result of this contest. I can see the reasoning behind Guy's contest, and he's sticking to his philosophical guns (which I respect).
The problem is not this one design contest. It's the fact that if design contests become too commonplace, then designers will no longer be able to make a reliable living in their field. As well, contests devalue the relationship between client and design, and discourage the ideation and research process which is vital to the design process.
fabgeekling - "I think that's a lousy excuse for not submitting work because you're afraid you will fail."
In a contest with hundreds of entries, even an outstanding, well-researched entry has a poor chance of success. I wonder how enthusiastic authors would be about a 'book contest'. I'm guessing Guy would abstain as well.
"I think one critical piece of information many people who are protesting this contest are missing is that Guy Kawasaki is NOT some Joe Blow trying to get FREE work."
ReplyDeleteYou're right, he's a rich guy with a name trying to get free work. Like the A-list actor who never picks up a tab even though he's the one who can most afford to cover the bill. Because after all, he's doing everybody else a very special favour by letting them eat at the same table as him, right?
@ anonymous at 3:33pm 8-2-10 RE comparing the contest to eating out with a celebrity.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I appreciate the metaphor I don't believe you've used a correct one.
A more appropriate would be an ad from a well known director hiring unknown actors and not paying them UNLESS the movie does well.
I'm sure there are plenty of up and coming actors who are just waiting for someone to give them that sort of chance. Many work for peanuts if they think the movie will get them the right exposure.
But that's the thing. There are also many who work for little and their work goes straight to DVD.
It's all about making a decision whether a project is worth the risk or sacrifice that could yield the kind of exposure you're looking for.
I didn't even submit anything for the contest yet, and just writing a post about this gave me exposure. 4,771 blog hits in two days and 30 more people followed me on twitter. The potential of being marketed by Guy's book seems incredible to me, because I find social media fascinating. If you honestly don't see how this particular project is not like the other spec work I'm not sure I can say anything else to make you see that.
But please if you're going to try and change my mind, at least make some good counter arguments for what I said in my post.
"A more appropriate would be an ad from a well known director hiring unknown actors and not paying them UNLESS the movie does well."
ReplyDeleteThat actually sounds pretty unethical to me, unless of course the director isn't getting paid either. And it's actually one of the reasons the Actor's Guild exists; it may be all right to work for free if you're some middle class hipster with a financial buffer or some other source of income (like family or whatever), but people gotta eat, and 'exposure' doesn't fill the cupboard.
"I didn't even submit anything for the contest yet, and just writing a post about this gave me exposure. 4,771 blog hits in two days and 30 more people followed me on twitter. The potential of being marketed by Guy's book seems incredible to me, because I find social media fascinating. If you honestly don't see how this particular project is not like the other spec work I'm not sure I can say anything else to make you see that."
So... you're using somebody else's work to increase your own visibility. Congratulations! How much income has it generated for you? How much income has it generated for Guy and the folks submitting (because it's their work that you're riding off)? Yeah, I thought so.
"But please if you're going to try and change my mind, at least make some good counter arguments for what I said in my post."
This is just arrogant coming from someone who can't distinguish between "loose" and "lose".
@anonymous.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your comment and pointing out a spelling error.
I don't see exposure as instant income because it is not. You can't quantify potential income based on exposure.
Also I have never said that actors work for free but rather small wages when they think a project has potential.
All I'm saying is that folks shouldn't dismiss something right away, because of what mold they think the project fits. I never said, you must do this, this is the way a good designer thinks.
No I presented some points which I felt were valid for the audience I wrote them for.
All you designers are missing the point.
ReplyDeleteGuy doesn't respect the profession nor care about the design industry. He's just want a lot of people giving him free stuff. The man is a genius. An ass but a genius in gypping people out of their time and money.
If he can con a bunch of graphic design hacks to do spec work....they are the total tools. A sucker is born every minute. The ones that do this contest pretty much suck at what they do and obviously have nothing of value. And the "winner" would be Guy.
Exposure doesn't pay the bills.
ReplyDeleteDoes anybody remember the name of the designer that won the last contest? LMAO. some "exposure".
It's silly to assume someone hasn't gotten anything out of doing the last cover. It's silly to presume that just because you've never heard of this person they haven't been getting work. Do you know every designer on this planet?
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to quantify the exposure without knowing the facts, hence you shouldn't dismiss them altogether.
Also to the guy that says that all designers are missing the point.
Do you feel that belittling those who chose to participate creates an effective argument?
Who are YOU to make such an assumption?
It's easy to say you're successful if you leave an anonymous comment.
RE guy to responded to my metaphor response.
I simply pointed out that the metaphor given was inaccurate and provided something closer to what is happening here. Doesn't mean that I have first hand knowledge of what goes on in the entertainment industry.
Lastly I really appreciate any positive feedback or well thought out counter arguments. I have enjoyed this discussion.
Thanks!
-Magda
I can understand not wanting to work for spec. It puts all of the risk on the designer's shoulders and none of the risk on the one commissioning the work.
ReplyDeleteTime is money and the time that is invested in a spec job is time that could go towards a paying project.
However... if you don't have a paying project than you are certainly better suited to take a shot at a spec project than gnashing teeth and railing on the interwebs.
Would it not make sense that Guy's name carries a lot of weight in biz circles and with a number of people who have budgets and jobs to be done? Would it not be savvy marketing to throw a couple hours into your own design, post it to your website and suck up some search traffic? Would it not be savvier still to watch people tweeting about it and then send them to take a look at your own submission?
A few hours spec work and a bit of self promotion can pay off greater than the $1k prize offered, and far more than complaining will ever pay out.
I think this competition is a good idea because it values the contributions or content generated by the public. infact, it is "value-added" rather than "exploitation".
ReplyDeleteIf a designer was not just interested in MONEY, he/she would see this as an opportunity to contribute to the knowledge society and to publishing.
Imagine having your design on Guy Kawasaki's book?! Just being given a chance to work with/for Guy Kawasaki is great. Hopefully, the winner gets to meet him (if he/she hasnt yet). My fingers are crossed. I submitted my entries (username: kiranb) already.
"Don't you think people already try this method and don't get hired? What if there are no positions available for the type of work you want?"
ReplyDeletewooo thats assumptive, 'Who are YOU to make such an assumption?'
Im simply saying there are 100's of ways to find the dream job (i only mentioned three)without having to work on spec
If you reach a point where no work is available then you would be better off using your spare time to learn a new skill than doing spec
Have you asked bill gates for work? And im talking about really asking fo the work!!
You keep repeating "if you are a designer with NO work..."
ReplyDeleteIf you are a designer with no work, stop blaming the economy and do some better work. If you are a designer with no work, do you really think your work is good enough to win a competition???
"I think that's a lousy excuse for not submitting work because you're afraid you will fail"
ReplyDeleteDo you actually think your work is bad if he doesn't pick you? OMG.
Your entire argument boils down to "why bother taking a principled stand against something you disagree with, if you have a chance of benefiting?"
ReplyDeleteTaking a stand against something, despite the possible benefits, is what makes a stand principled in the first place.
Spec work is spec work. It doesn't matter if Guy Kawasaki asks for it , or Disney or any chump off the street.
ReplyDeleteThe cheesiest, grubbiest people who've ever walked through my office door typically say "This could mean a TON of work later if you cut me a deal on this first project." It's slimy and greedy and bad business.
"Hey look at all the unemployed designers out there. Let's take advantage of them by dangling a little money and making them cumulatively spend thousands of hours on our project and then, once we see an idea we like, we use it for a below market value price.
ReplyDeleteWe'll get roughly $200k to $400k of design work and pay just a fraction for it.
Oh, and the great part, it's all totally ethical and good for all those designers. It'll be awesome. " - Guy Kawasaki
Ok so the last few comments are referring to ethics. Which is something I can empathize with. But let me ask you this.
ReplyDeleteHow many designers who think it is unethical of Guy to conduct this contest have made money from work for companies like Exxon, or McDonalds, or BP, any of the big tobacco companies like Philip Morris, any of the pharma companies, how about companies like Walmart...
Yes what Guy is doing perhaps directly affects us, the design community, in an unethical way because you feel doing work where you might not get paid is unfair.
How many pay outrages gas prices, but continue to do so even though they are being ripped off?
Supporting a multi billion dollar industry that pollutes the earth?
Yes there are unethical things going on every day. But people still do what they have to in order to sustain their living.
So maybe to you the contest is unworthy of your time. But you can not deny that there is a possibility that whoever wins might benefit from it. And if you don't think there is a potential benefit from the win, well, that is your opinion. The results either good or bad are both speculative.
I wrote this because I see a benefit in doing the contest.
Just like the people who support huge corporations by spending money on their products I chose to only think about the results as they affect ME in this situation.
I'm not concerned about what Guy is getting out of this.
For those who say that this encourages spec work from perhaps people of lower stature... well no one is saying people should participate in work that yields no benefit. It's up to each individual to determine if they are being ripped off or not.
"Yes there are unethical things going on every day. But people still do what they have to in order to sustain their living."
ReplyDeleteAt the risk of pushing situational metaphors (though I'll follow your Wal-Mart, BP & Exxon lead), this argument has been used to defend some fairly onerous activity. Not that I'm saying Kawasaki's contest rises to the level of whale hunting, dolphin farming, seal clubbing and environmental destruction, but the people responsible for those activities use exactly the same rationalizations. Bottom line, it's a very bad argument.
"Yes what Guy is doing perhaps directly affects us, the design community, in an unethical way because you feel doing work where you might not get paid is unfair."
Let's be clear here. Everyone working on this project, save one, will not get paid. Taking this further, take a look at the home page of Crowdspring - where this contest is being hosted - to see how this effects design as a profession. CrowdSPRING claims 68,000 'creatives' in their 'community.' They boast about 13,088 successful projects. Taking everything at face value and accepting that every contest had a unique winner, that would means that over 55,000 designers have participated in CrowdSPRING contests without receiving any payment or fame. Perhaps they're unemployed. Perhaps they needed a portfolio piece Nevertheless, there is no sustainability in that business model for them, or any designers.
Kawasaki's contest is nothing new or unique, save his high-profile among a certain set. Many see this 'trend' as an ongoing erosion of design as a profession.
"It's up to each individual to determine if they are being ripped off or not."
Very true. Yet any decision should be an informed one, no? That's what the people you describe as "horde of artists publicly crucifying (Kawasaki)" are trying to do. Guy Kawasaki (and your blog post) would have people believe that supporting a spec work site, as well as the spec work business model, is a great 'opportunity'. Others, like myself, believe that the only opportunity here is for Kawasaki, who gets hundreds of submissions from unpaid designers, and CrowdSPRING who make a fifteen percent cut ($150) plus a forty dollar listing fee. Kawasaki's book publishing is (one of) his business(es). Hosting design contests is Crowdspring's business. You're tacitly defending both, as is your right. Yet, when designers try to promote their craft as a real, honest-to-goodness 'business', we're somehow 'missing the point'?
Ryan I appreciate your comment. Mostly because you're taking the time to express your viewpoint rather than being sarcastic or a smart ass about it.
ReplyDeleteI'm fascinated by social media. I read about it a lot and I'm curious about the potential it brings.
Yes Guy is the ultimate winner. But I see that the person who wins, and the top selections have a unique opportunity to be marketed by one of the leaders in the social media field. Because personally I have landed new business through participation in social media sites I feel winning this contest is unique enough not to fall under the usual spec work category.
Rob Clark's comment for example is exactly my point. Someone could cease this opportunity for their own benefit.
I'm not seeing supporting this individual project as supporting ALL of spec work, or even supporting CrowdSpring.
Sometimes you give in to the baddies. I don't support the oil industry for example. But it's 2010 and I can't get around by walking or biking everywhere. Once a while I have to dish out for bus fare, or cab fare, or even air fare where I know a fraction of the money will go to the oil company.
I even worked on oil company litigation matters, but my alternative was to quit the company I worked for at that time.
Professional designers are much more than makers of pretty pictures. We provide strategic thinking and visual communications by developing close relationships with our clients while seeking to understand how there businesses work and what their audiences want.
ReplyDeleteContests like the one that Mr. Kawasaki is proposing, are high profile statements of the opposite. They boil down our work to the subjective level, ultimately creating a race to the bottom.
What's worse is that the so called "designers" who tend to support these contests are generally non-formally educated hobbyists turned graphic ARTIST. Unfortunately the general public doesn't understand the difference.
As a result, the design industry pays the price because the value added services we provide become even more unexpected and devalued.
@kg
ReplyDeleteI hear what you're saying. Most people don't understand why I choose to specifically label myself as an information designer. My work involves a lot of problem solving and is extremely user centric. I have to educate my clients that there is a difference between making things look pretty and making it meaningful.
Design is not a hobby for me. I was the art geek throughout grade school and high school and then went to college and got a degree in computer graphics. I will say that I didn't go specifically to an art school, but rather a 4 year (good) university, because I felt it was important to have broader knowledge.
I've worked as an information designer since I graduated. The past year I've split out to work for myself.
If I spend free time on this project and don't win, the value of my work will not decrease. I'll probably have fun making something not specifically work related.
If I win I have the potential to get some FREE marketing.
Either way I don't see it as a losing situation.
Thanks - I try not to be reactionary when having this debate. Too much vitriol (from either side) tends to drown out whatever points people are trying to make.
ReplyDelete"I'm not seeing supporting this individual project as supporting ALL of spec work, or even supporting CrowdSpring."
Fair enough. Many, including myself, see this as another 'thin edge of the wedge.'Kawasaki's book contest isn't the first (nor do I suspect it will be the last). There have been others - Mega-church preacher Rick Warren and "Four Minute Work Week"'s Tim Ferris book cover contests on 99designs are among the higher profile ones. For what it's worth, both received the same backlash and pro/anti Twitter and blog arguments too.
On the same token, if I were an unemployed designer, would I toss my hat into the ring? I'd like to believe I wouldn't, based on principle (and in the leaner days of my career, I was lucky enough not to have to) though who knows? Providing for a family is a pretty strong motivator, but I'm of the belief that a designer's time would be more effectively spent in marketing their services via channels that are available to them (Twitter, websites, blogs and networking).
Overall, I don't believe that design contests pay the dividends that are promised (for example, designers are told that if they don't win, they'll receive valuable feedback from clients. They won't. Most spec sites have reduced 'feedback' to a series of stars, and even those are ignored by a majority of buyers and contest holders.
That goes double for high-profile contests (like Kawasaki's) where there are too many entries to provide feedback, of any sort, on. Sadly, most people entering contests on sites like CrowdSPRING do so without so much as a 'thank you for your submission'. In terms of generating portfolio pieces, when contests become the norm (the future of design, as sites like CrowdSPRING and 99designs would have us believe) would-be designers won't need a portfolio as there will be no profession left. Alarmist? Perhaps. But certainly part of the discussion and a position of many in the field.
In terms of giving into the baddies, I share your perspective on oil companies and what have you (I have a similar quandary when it comes to eating meat, yet being opinionated about animal welfare). Though I might argue we make stands where we can.
Don't want to hog your comment section any further so that'll be it for me. Thanks for the discussion.
You make some valid points into why someone should do this 'contest' - to build the portfolio, to get your name out there as a designer.
ReplyDeleteFar be it - I've been there. I've had to do the pro-bono and submit my portfolio for an opening. I've taken grunt work (not a spec contest) as a designer to get my name out there.
However, I would NEVER take allow myself to be exploited in such a way. Here's why:
A) Your work is up against EVERYONE...regardless if they are a kid with Adobe, a plumber who happens to have Publisher on their PC, or the salesperson who thinks he can 'just do your job' based on some templates he found online.
B) Your work is devalued against your peers..plus potential clients. So what if you say your work was chosen by Guy? You were up against the above participants. Albeit MAYBE some other up and comers also submitted and you were lucky to be chosen amongst the pack (I use this term loosely).
C) Comparing designers who design projects with Exxon or BP is irrelevant to your argument. We are talking about work ethics and exploitation - not about social or moral ethics. that's akin to a religious debate IMO.
I've tweeted this and I'll say it again. It is sad when people cannot distinguish between pro-bono, internship and 'spec work'.
Yes, your 'blog' has over 4000 hits etc...but it's due mostly to the fact Guy tweeted about it...not just due to the fact that you wrote your blog about it IMO.
You're absolutely entitled to your opinion but so are others who are chastising Guy. I'm sure there are others who agree with you. However, if you are going to post on an open forum such as twitter...prepare for the consequences.
more blog followers, congrats!
ReplyDeleteAnd have they commissioned your work yet?
I can't wait to see that collage of the 210 (right now - I'm sure that number will rise) cover designs that will end up having been produced at no cost. Awesome exposure!
ReplyDeleteI don't remember anyone raising an eyebrow when the Vancouver Olympics Committee asked people to submit designs for the Vancouver Winter Olympics logo. Why is the guy kawasaki thing an issue and not that?
ReplyDeleteThe Vancouver Olympic Committee asking for people to submit designs, would be analagous to Guy Kawasaki asking his extended family for design submissions. An Olympic Committe is more of a public reflection, and there is a benefit to offering a voice to members of the community it represents.
ReplyDelete